Tommasini
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 Pitts S-1C
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   Topic: Pitts S-1 C
Posted: Jul/01/2010 at 08:40 |
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Good Afternoon .Can anybody help with any manuals/drawings for the Pitts S-1C , just bringing one into the UK as a project , anything really . Also any engines either rebuilt or needing rebuilding available . Any information would be deeply appreciated .
Edited by Tommasini - Jul/02/2010 at 10:30
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Phil Dickinson
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N95334
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rebuilding Pitts S-1-D 135 hp
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Posted: Jul/12/2010 at 17:15 |
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Dennis J McGuire
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Dave.flying
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Acro Sport 2
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Posted: Jul/13/2010 at 01:00 |
Have a chat to Rob Millinship of Aerographic he is very helpfull know the pitts inside out. Mobile 07973 519550
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Kiwi
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Pitts
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Posted: Jul/13/2010 at 22:11 |
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If purchasing Pitts drawings from Steen, just remember a Steen S-1C is different than a Pitts S-1C......
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lusc1308
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pitts
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Posted: Sep/03/2010 at 10:01 |
I have drawings from 1965 for the S1C. I also have drawings from 1970.
<reference to copying plans removed.beej>
Edited by jgnunn - Sep/03/2010 at 13:21
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kbaxter327
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Posted: Sep/03/2010 at 10:40 |
Kiwi,
How are they different? I have neither set. But am looking to buy a set.
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macwolf
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Posted: Sep/03/2010 at 12:53 |
The older S-1C plans are hand drawn and for some, more difficult to use. The Steen version is CAD, but it no different in design to the earlier plans - just a different sheet order/layout, and has some nicer 3D sheets of the fuel system, spring gear etc.
I don't know of any issues/errors with the Steen CAD version if you are looking to build, these would be the set of choice.
Tom - how far along is that project.. ?
Edited by macwolf - Sep/03/2010 at 13:33
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Stuart Mackereth
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kbaxter327
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Posted: Sep/03/2010 at 13:18 |
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So the less expensive Original plans will be fine to build from?
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macwolf
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Posted: Sep/03/2010 at 13:38 |
Well, to be honest, i would consider the plans the cheapest part of the project by far, and wouldn't want to miss out on any later amendments and additions that crept in between '74 and '96. I'm also not sure if the older plans reflect the newer aluminum side panels, or whether the stringers run through to the firewall. Improvements I would definitely want in my build.
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Stuart Mackereth
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macwolf
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Posted: Sep/03/2010 at 13:50 |
Here's another bit of food for thought... and looking for correction if it is wrong.
When I bought my S-1C plans, I asked David Stone at Steen whether I could make duplicates for friends, and he said, yeah sure no problem.. we need more of them flying. I was a little surprised. but pleased with the benevolence, and made an electronic copy of the plans available on the web, but privately. Some members on this forum have taken the opportunity to use them at request.
I did some checking.. there are no copyright notices on the plans, but let's just assume for now that one exists (or used to exist). The design was done pre-1978, and these CAD plans are just a refresh of the original plans, so don't really qualify for a new copyright (these is where I need confirmation). Anyway, according to US Copyright law, and design that was published prior to 1978 only has a 28 year copyright, thereafter it needs to be renewed. I don't know of any renewal, so technically, the S-1C plans are public domain.
Steen are charging for the paper, effort and duplication process; not the design.
If I am wrong, happy to pull the copies of the web, but nobody to date seems to have cared.. it is, after all, a very small group of interested people in the S-1C, even within biplane builder circles.
The S-1S plans should be no different, as their base drawing date is 1972, but I know there is a patent and I'm not sure how the rules work here. The patent seems to specially apply to symmetrical wings, so I have assumed it applies to the S.
Anyone know any different, please shout.
Edited by macwolf - Sep/03/2010 at 13:52
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Stuart Mackereth
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Kiwi
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Posted: Sep/03/2010 at 15:20 |
Originally posted by kbaxter327Kiwi,
How are they different? I have neither set. But am looking to buy a set.
The Steen S-1C drawings are in effect two aileron S-1D wings. They are quite different than the original Curtiss S-1C wings.
The obvious difference is the unequal span top and bottom of the original S-1C wings. This means there is one less rib in the lower wing than the S-1D, S-1S and Steen S-1C wings. The knock on here is that the control system on the S-1D, S-1S and Steen S-1C wings has an idler belcrank.
The less obvious difference but really important! is that original S-1C spar size is smaller than the S-1D, S-1S and Steen S-1C wings. They are 1050 lb gross weight wings whereas the S-1D, S-1S and Steen S-1C wings are 1150 lbs.
Other detail differences are the bolts in the root end fittings are smaller on the original S-1C wings, less tertiary internal bracing, compression struts instead of compression ribs. Also Steen have a number of detail differences from the Pitts design.
How do I know this? I have original S-1C drawings, Steen S-1C drawings (thanks to Stuart!), S-1S and S-1D drawings. I also have original S-1C wings, for which the Steen drawings are of no use. I have had something to do with nearly all the wings fitted to Pitts' in New Zealand anyway, Sparcraft, S-1C, S-1S and Falcon. They're all a bit different.
If you want to build a 180 hp aeroplane, I really don't think you want to go original S-1C because of the gross weight issue (we're all too well fed now). If you wanted to build a "small engined" Pitts, I'd go original S-1C and even to the point of looking at how the old fuse was done. The metal panels back to the cockpit for example will add additional weight.
I hope this helps.
Cheers, Andrew.
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macwolf
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Posted: Sep/03/2010 at 19:50 |
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Can't get a more detailed answer than that! Thanks too.
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Stuart Mackereth
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kbaxter327
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Posted: Sep/03/2010 at 20:13 |
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WOW! I LOVE THIS FORUM! I AM CONSTANTLY CHECKING IN AND LEARNING SOMETHING!
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Tommasini
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Pitts S-1C
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Posted: Sep/04/2010 at 11:33 |
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My God , had nothing for a few weeks on that subject I would like to thank everybody for the input into this thread, So when did the aluminum panels come onto the build process ??. And waht are the quality of the Steen plans I am just in the process of purchasing some . Just as a matter of interest my S-1C has never had a cockpit what are any of the members views on the Todd cockpit assy ???
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Phil Dickinson
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Kiwi
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Pitts
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Posted: Sep/05/2010 at 01:56 |
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The Steen drawings are fine.
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Redtail
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Pitts S1C
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Posted: Sep/08/2010 at 11:07 |
I'm building a S1C from Steen plans. My fuselage is pretty much complete except for a few minor items. I have both the old Curtis hand drawn plans and the Steen CAD plans. I could not, as a first time builder, build an airplane from the old plans. Way to much detail and information missing. Not all of the parts are even on the old drawings. The CAD plans, though much better, still have a errors and inconsistances. Some I cought in time others I had to work around after the fact. Most errors are dimensional and don't cause much of an issue. Others have caused me extra hours of work to correct. I have learned to lay everything out full scale to double check to be sure the dimensions on the plans are correct before cutting material. I am amazed that after all these years these drawings haven't got every error corrected.
Matt
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Matt
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Kiwi
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Pitts
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Posted: Yesterday at 01:28 |
Matt - Just treat them as a guide......
Would love to see some pictures of your project.
Cheers, Andrew.
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flyingfool
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Stolp V-Star, Starduster 1
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Posted: Yesterday at 07:16 |
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Maybe if builders reported back to Steen about the error's they would at least have an opportunity to make the edits. Or at least offer a few drawing amendments to plan holders or future sales of the plans.
If no builder reports error's. They have no way of knowing that there are any!
Just a thought.
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Marl
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Posted: Yesterday at 13:13 |
Stuart (macwolf)----drop me a private message with your email addy---tried to PM you, but your box is full...
Thanks!
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kbaxter327
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Posted: Yesterday at 13:15 |
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DITTO
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macwolf
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Posted: Yesterday at 18:56 |
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done! PM away.... :-)
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Stuart Mackereth
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ByperSonic
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Do I have to pick just one?
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Posted: Yesterday at 22:20 |
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Guys and gals, even if it's legal to re-post airplane plans, consider also that (in Steen's case at least) you get free technical support with just a phone call or email. This could easily save you hundreds of dollars, weeks of work, or even your life, depending upon the question you have. Sure, the paper, ink and labor involved in the plans only costs a few bucks. But that's really not what you're paying for when you buy plans. It's a difficult business for any company to do well in, and having been in said business, you wouldn't believe how much time and money it takes to provide tech support. Steen's more generous than most, they help builders without playing "plans Nazis" nor require a serial number. Buying the plans is simply a good way to support their efforts to keep the Pitts legacy going as part of an active business concern and not just another orphaned design. Like many of you, I too collect (free) plans to look at... but if you're actually going to spend many thousands of dollars and devote years of your life building a certain aircraft, it only seems fair that you should at least spend the tiny fraction of the project cost to buy an official set of plans to support the vendor of that design, so that they can be there when you need help.
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Anyone who discourages others from following their dreams of flight, whatever those dreams may be, is completely unworthy of the title of "aviator"!
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macwolf
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Posted: Today at 00:10 |
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Stuart Mackereth
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